Nothing about the last 12 months has been especially straight-forward for Lars Ulrich. Between James’ time away in rehab and COVID-19, there have been a unique combination of elements to traverse. Lars is used to being the chief navigator. He is used to knowing the exact speed and coordinates at which Metallica is traveling, yet for the last 12 months, such things were often impossible to get ahead of. I wondered how all of this would affect Lars, and the fact is, he has weathered the turbulence with relative calm, carving out some continuity amidst those waves of the unknown. Has it always been a picnic? Has it been for any of us?! Yet with both Myles and Layne having moved back home, Lars has clearly enjoyed the extra time spent with both the boys and his wife Jess, all the while happily accepting that when the time was right for Metallica to start up again, the navigation dynamics would be a little different going forward. We sat down to discuss this, and many other Metallica matters, in what is his first So What! chat since the early days of this pandemic.

Steffan Chirazi: So, I suppose the place to start would be at the beginning of all this. You’d already had one unexpected change of plans in September when James began his recovery. I think it’s safe to say the band was probably in the biggest spot it had been for a good 20 years, and then suddenly it was over for a while. So there was that shock, and then came COVID-19. Discuss the impact on you personally of both things, especially seeing as they were both out of your control.

Lars Ulrich: Well, with any of these things, whether it’s James’ situation or COVID-19, it’s hard to not have [a shock regarding] the way it has played out be part of an answer. I feel different about COVID-19 on October 16th than I did on March 1st, and I have a different set of realities, a different clarity, a different understanding, and a different relationship with it. And the same goes for James’ issues and his need to embrace recovery again last year. So what were we [back in September 2019], two-three days out from [having done] S&M2? And I was told that James had some issues, and that he had to go and deal with that, and nobody at that time really knows what that means. You know, what does it mean for him, what does it mean for us, what does it mean for scheduling, all that shit. You just kind of sit there, and obviously your first thoughts are is he okay? What’s going on? Then the Australian dates got moved. Then there was the Helping Hands concert that got moved, so on and so forth. And you start understanding more. We spoke a couple times. We were texting. Started getting some more clarity, I mean, we’re coming up on 40 years here. You surrender to the elements. It’s part of the ride and obviously none of us are officially married to each other, but you know, in marriage vows you say “in the good times and the bad times, in health and in sickness, in ups and then downs,” and if there’s anything that’s clear almost 40 years later, it is that we’re in this for the long haul. We love each other, we believe in each other. We have each other’s backs. We will fight for each other. And we sort of roll with it.

I’m not gonna bullshit you. If I look back to a year ago, there were days where I was more positive, there were days where I was less positive, and there were days where you sit and wonder, “How is this going to play out?” And Kirk, Rob, and I were probably talking and communicating closer and more intimately than ever before. This shit is never easy, but it’s also part of the ride, and so you just learn.

We’re different people from each other. We’re independent people from each other. We live our own lives, and Metallica’s the thing that connects us. And so like in any next level, strong, binding relationship, there are parallel paths, which are the state of the collective – the group – and the state of the individuals. So it’s like, “How is James, how is Lars, how is Kirk, how is Rob?” That’s one conversation. And then, “How is Metallica?” which is a different conversation, and what gets tricky is that both of those conversations exist on parallel trajectories, but also overlap more often than not. When you were 19 years old, maybe there was a greater emphasis on the collective or on the gang mentality, and when you’re 156 years old like I am now, maybe the percentages shift. There’s a significant emphasis on your family, yourself, and the trajectory you’ve created for yourself outside of Metallica, so it’s an interesting place where all that kind of comes to a head and you have to prepare yourself for the ups and downs. I don’t know what Kirk told you, I don’t know what Rob told you, I didn’t read James’ interview. It’s hard for me to imagine that everybody was not feeling sort of the same thing, which was first and foremost, “How is James? Is he okay? Will he be okay? Will he find the tools, and will he find what he needs on the path of his recovery?” And then at the same time, “How am I feeling about this? How is the band feeling about this?” and all that kind of stuff.

But a year later, here we are, all engaged. James is in a very healthy place, the band is in a very healthy place, and obviously COVID has played a major role in all of it. It’s been a mind fuck of a year; I’m sitting here on October 16th, I feel confident and excited about the state of the Metallica-nation, and I feel very optimistic about what’s ahead.

SC: We’ll get to COVID-19 because that’s definitely very important, but I want to stick with your relationship with James for a minute. It is obviously very unique, as is your relationship with this band, because you’re one of the primary parents. And I think one of the things I’ve noticed in the last year is that you’re not getting wound up and aggravated by being out of “immediate control of issues,” which would have perhaps not been as easy in the past. Talk a little bit about the journey you’ve gone through to get to a place where you have been able to acquiesce to the fact that, “Yeah, this is out of my control.” How did you do it?

LU: I don’t know if I’ve gone through anything different than I’ve gone through in the past. I think I’m pretty good at steering the things around me that need steering, but I think I’m also quite capable of stepping aside and either letting somebody else steer if that becomes the battle cry, or surrendering to a standstill, situation, or a time and place where steering is not part of the path forward. I don’t know how else to say it.

SC: Do you think in the last year you’ve felt more vulnerable with regards to the band than you’ve ever allowed yourself to feel?

LU: I don’t think so. Vulnerable? No, I don’t think that there’s anything that’s radically different. I think there’s more clarity on the path forward.

SC: Which is?

LU: We’ve talked about this a thousand times. In order for this band to function, the band members have to function, families have to function, and personal lives have to be in order. Metallica lives have to be in order. So there’s all these sorts of relationships, people, and dynamics to work with. As we move forward and the earth rotates through the universe, I think we continuously get a little more clarity on the path forward in terms of the balances needed to keep everything rolling, to keep the band functioning, to keep the band members happy, to keep the lights on – all those different things. I think we’re better at it now than we were ten years ago, ten years ago we were better at it than we were ten years before. So it’s alljust part of the path forward. Obviously, you understand that if you are in a group, if you are in a collective setting, there are pros and cons to that. There’s four members, and if one of those four guys goes down for whatever reason, and I don’t want to sound clinical about this, then we deal with it to the best of our ability, and with the resources and the knowledge that we have. I feel that every time somebody goes down, we learn from that and so the next time we deal with it better.

SC: Do you think that you’re comfortable with the fact that all the members of Metallica might each be getting a different joy from being in the band, or a different purpose? James talked in his interview about the fact that for him, Metallica is a vocation. He feels he’s come to an understanding that he’s here to write the words he writes and to play the music that you play as a “mission,” so-to-speak, and I think that’s probably more important to him than any other element. Are you comfortable with the fact that you may all have different reasons for enjoying the collective energy? 

LU: We’re all very different people from each other so it would surprise me if we didn’t have different reasons. It would be awkward if it was all the same. I think James often looks at some stuff through a spiritual lens, which is super cool for him. I guess I maybe look at things through a more tangible lens for myself.

SC: At this point, do your differences as people and band members make the work even better?

LU: I can tell you hand on heart that, unlike years ago, I basically don’t read any of the interviews that the other guys do. Twenty or thirty years ago, we would all sit and fucking read every page of Kerrang! and every page of Circus magazine, see what so-and-so’s saying and what the other band members were saying, what James was saying about this and that. Now there’s just none of that. I also don’t really read what people say about Metallica. I’ll say that occasionally, once every six months or something like that, it’s kind of fun to go through the trolling section just because of the ridiculousness of all of it, but it’s not something that I do regularly anymore. Twenty years ago it would’ve been, “Oh, my God, somebody said something bad” or “that person said a nasty comment in the comments section,” or whatever. Now none of that really means anything to me.

SC: It pisses me off. I have to not respond of course, but when I see someone blathering on about Napster for the hundredth time – and getting it very wrong – well, I mean, it’s just really pathetic.

LU: But I’m so over- I’m literally immune to it. We just did a bunch of interviews, and sometimes, if I am being interviewed by a journalist who is also a fan, they’ll say, “When people say Lars Ulrich is a shitty drummer, I defend you.” Which is cool, but I’ve got to tell you, 20 years later, 30 years later, it just doesn’t register anymore. I am so comfortable with who I am, I’m so comfortable with who Metallica is, I’m so comfortable with our place in all of it. I’ve got an incredible wife, three great kids, my dad and Molly, incredible friends, and lots of cool acquaintances. It’s all good. I’ve got nothing left to prove, so it just doesn’t register anymore.

SC: Okay. Confidence and trust. That’s good. Before we get to topics of the future, I want to bring you back to Pandemica. From your perspective, was there anxiety getting together for the first time in nine or ten months? And just tell me how it felt to play that event.

LU: The first word that comes to mind is “surreal.” So as you’re sitting in the pandemic for months and months during lockdown, your mind’s wandering, and you’re sitting there going, “Fuck, I wish I was on tour. Fuck, I wish I was onstage. Fuck, I wish I was playing, hanging out with the fellas.” Then time moves forward and there’s an event. I guess I have a very methodical approach to this stuff, to a fault maybe. I look at them almost as tasks and it’s like, “Okay, it’s a task, get in shape!” I’m running, I’m working out, I’m playing my drums in my little home studio, I’m getting into shape, that’s part of my gig. Then, y’know, “Next Tuesday, go down to HQ.” So of course we do, and we get tested, and we’re in a bubble. Our approach has been, maybe compared to how other folks have been dealing with it, probably to the extreme, and we’re not apologetic for that. So it was surreal being down at HQ with 20 to 30 other people, even though they were all tested.

Everybody was tested every two-three days, and I was probably more comfortable outdoors. Still it’s masks, it’s face shields, and it’s all of that, and every precaution is being taken. It was a little odd being inside a studio at HQ, playing, and I had my mask on whenever I was inside. There were a couple times where I was like, “Wow, a lot of these people are very close,” and you’re sitting there going, “Eh, there’s not much ventilation and there’s only two open doors.” But ultimately, I guess I have a work ethic that I’ve inherited from my mom and 38-39 years of gigs, which sometimes you just shut up, do the fucking gig, and do what you've got to do. The days of complaining and moaning or whatever felt like decades ago. On a global level, there are a lot of people affected by this, people whose lives are completely devastated directly by COVID, with loved ones affected by COVID, and by the economic realities that are affecting so many people. So going down to HQ with 30 other crew members, personal chefs, and guys that stretch us and so on, it’s pretty fucking hard to complain about any of that in context of the global situation. And in some situations my approach is to get through it, and then evaluate it afterwards.

So the takeaway was it was great to be with everybody. After a couple of days, I felt very comfortable and safe in the bubble. Seeing, the rest of the boys was great, playing was great. It felt very effortless and natural. I mean we hadn’t played since the S&M2 shows together, so what, ten months? That may be the longest we hadn’t played as a band since after the St. Anger tour when we took almost eleven months off between the end of that and the Rolling Stones shows. So the thought does (only briefly) come into your mind, “Can we still do this?” But I play enough and I stay in shape, so it’s not like, “Holy fuck, I haven’t sat behind a drum kit for ten months, I wonder if I still can kind of power through these songs?!”

SC: Was there a magic moment where you knew it was all good?

LU: No, it’s not really like that. Overall it felt much better than I had dared hope for, and it was certainly more effortless than I had expected sometimes. When people ask us about our dreams, we all have similar versions of nightmares. I’m late, the intro tape of “Ecstasy” is playing, I’m three miles away from the stage, and when I get up, the opening song has already started, I can’t reach the drums and everything’s made out of rubber, all that kind of stuff. So all those silly nightmares aside, which I know all of us have versions of, I think what we do is pretty fucking well engrained in us by now, and again, it went better and more effortlessly than I had dared to hope for.

SC: Confident synergy, maybe?

LU: I guess I’m always happy that it seems to find its way back. You could sit there and go, “Well, aren’t you silly for even entertaining the fact that you thought that there potentially could not be a way back?” Generally, I feel that when the shit really hits the fan, when it’s really time to step up and do what we do, it usually lands where it’s supposed to land. And so what is that? A batting average, of 99 out of 100, 98 out of 100, nine out of ten, I don’t know what the fucking percentage is, but it usually lands where it’s supposed to land, and I guess I find comfort and safety in that.

SC: Okay. Good enough. Well, okay, so let’s move on to somewhat of a look to the future here. Let’s talk about creativity in the COVID-era. It is clear the rules have to be rethought, the processes have to be rethought, everything has to be rethought. It’s fair to say then, on a lighter level, that you know… you have been investigating all the possibilities to get around the COVID restrictions when it comes to creating as a unit?

LU: Yeah, and who would have known when this thing started in March that we would still be sitting here in October? And the one thing we know in October is we’re going to be sitting here for a while longer. We’re not anywhere near the end of this. So how do you function as a band and how do you move things forward? We’re doing our second virtual event with the All Within My Hands streaming show on November 14th. I don’t know what’s gonna happen on the other side of that, but getting together and doing events is super fun and inspiring. Hopefully we know more now than we did a couple months ago when we did the last one.

The four of us have a Zoom call every Thursday and talk about how we’re doing, how we’re feeling. We talk about opportunities and we talk about making music. For all of us, our lives are pretty structured around our family engagements and around our Metallica engagements – I call them mile markers. So when you start putting a bunch of mile markers in the calendar, a birthday, a function, a celebration, a school vacation, college things, and then you start putting Metallica mile markers in there, the rest of the calendar starts filling up. I would say [right now in the COVID-19 era] it’s hardest for a group. If you’re a solo artist, and it’s you and an acoustic guitar, there are fewer considerations. You can pick up that guitar, you can write a song on the spot, you can tell other people what to do through a Zoom call. You’re a one-man operation. When you’re in a band in your mid-50s, that is already more complicated, but then during COVID, those complications exaggerate or magnify. So we’re looking at the options of what can be done virtually. Greg Fidelman and Jason Gossman, both in LA, are steering the ship. You know, we did “Blackened 2020,” which was a fun, very impulsive endeavor. Obviously there’re limitations to what we can do virtually and nothing will ever replace the four of us being in a room together, but even if you take the COVID-19 element out of that equation, the four of us do – for better or worse – live in four different places now, even though the band is based in San Francisco and San Francisco will always be home to Metallica, and proudly so. So we’re trying to figure out how that – plus COVID-19 – impacts making a new record, doing projects, and so on. Do I want to go on tour tomorrow? Of course I do. Do I want to go on tour yesterday? Of course I do. Do I want to pretend that all this is not happening? Of course I do, but at the same time, like we talked about, I think I’m pretty good at accepting the realities of the situation around me and I accept this.

So we will ride this out, and we’re certainly connecting creatively in a virtual setting and moving some stuff forward… listening to some riffs, exchanging some ideas. Look, it’s got some limitations, but we’re not the only ones with those limitations, all the other bands out there are also trying to figure out what’s up, down, and sideways. But latency is latency! With Kirk being in Hawaii and me being in San Francisco, there will never not be any latency. So it’s just a matter of whether those latency elements can get to a point where they’re tolerable, and how much work you can then do. But obviously it’ll never replace being in the same space, and again, just like everybody else, we’re trying to figure all that out, and we’re pretty adventurous and pretty curious. We’ve got a great group of people around us who can help solve some of these problems.

SC: It seems like you’re as invested in Metallica today as you were in 1981, albeit with the perspective of age.

LU: I just really, really like what I do. I really like being in Metallica. I really like writing songs and making records. I really like touring. I like traveling. I like experiences, I like being in other countries and going to new restaurants and seeing different things and interacting with different people. I really like all of that. I wouldn’t want to live a nomadic life 365 days a year, and I love the comfort, safety, and I guess the bubble of being home. I miss traveling. But I really, really, really, really like what I do for, I guess, a living. And like I’ve said for 20 years, if it goes away tomorrow, that doesn’t mean if I do something else that I won’t miss this. I’d miss Metallica, but you know, it’s not like Metallica’s gonna stop tomorrow. I mean even if just, obviously an asterisk here, the worst-case scenario crazy situation…

SC: …a hypothetical, yeah…

LU: …tomorrow, the four of us decide that, “You know what? That was fun. I’ll see you down the road,” there will always be Metallica things that will need to be tended to.

SC: Correct.

LU: Whether Metallica is still writing and making records or Metallica’s touring, it’s hard for me to believe that there’s not gonna be a significant amount of my time taken up overseeing a bunch of that stuff anyway.

SC: You’ve collectively built the house big enough that everyone can play in their own rooms for a while if they need to and then come back to the main area and convene. You can have your creative dinner together, and a few of them maybe go off and do what they need to do before everyone reconvenes for another creative dinner a little later on. That’s essentially what it looks like from here, which is kind of what the Grateful Dead have done, and to an extent what the Stones do, and so on and so forth.

LU: Common space in the house, yes. As you know, and again no surprises here, I would love to be involved in film. I would love to write, produce, and maybe direct. I’m certainly less interested in acting. I believe that when my life winds down, hopefully not for another 30 or 40 years, there’ll still be a bunch of boxes that will remain unchecked, and maybe I’ll get them at another time or on a second go-round if I show up as a frog somewhere, or whatever. For me personally, there’s no shortage of things to engage in that I find rewarding, challenging, and inspiring, but I would prefer Metallica to be for another 30 years, because – and it’s really very simple – I love being in Metallica and I love what we do.